It's only worth getting involved because I think there's actually some ideas here that are worth spelling out and talking about.
Winer has a nice take of his own :
The way technology works, for those who care about such things: Start with a vision you believe in, and keep trying to find ways to show others how powerful it is. Over and over, often for years.
Sounds right to me.
The silliest thing, ever, is people getting all uptight because Dave is "arrogant".
So what?
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It hurts when you've been evangelizing something for years, with mild results, and then someone like Dave comes along, discovers the same cool thing, and everyone acts like it's the coolest thing ever. Makes you feel like you wasted your breath.
Anyone who wants to be an evangelist should stop hating on Dave and start taking notes on how he does it.
As I wrote before I think Dave's is a special kind of genius : one of integrating all the parts to create "platforms" rather than simply creating isolated technologies.
He's very intuitive. Watch how he juggles a handful of ideas, switching backwards and forwards from one to another, until he grasps how to put them together in a new combination.
I wouldn't be surprised, for example, if what he's really thinking about goes beyond simply recreating Bloglines or Feedburner for mobiles. I'm guessing that there's an OPML directory involved too : something more like a hierarchical hub of mobile-friendly feeds.
Or maybe he's looking to get some understanding of, and recognition among, Blackberry users before bringing the OPML Editor and shared outlining to that platform.
If he succeeds, it will be because he's actually brought several pieces together on the board at the same time. Not simply because he has a louder megaphone than others.
As josh and gardenstate suggest, Dave Winer's technique of intellectual landgrab is very annoying. The statement you quote makes sense - "Start with a vision you believe in...", until you start framing other people's visions as your own. Winer's done it loads of times: writable web/blogging (Tim Berners-Lee); RSS (Dan Libby); outlining (Doug Engelbart)...
Regarding your point on platform building, if you ask around you'll find that a very large number of web developers follow this approach. Over the years you accumulate various sets of tools that you're familiar with and work well together. Anything new you develop is a part of this integrated kit.
The ratio of custom code to standard libraries varies from developer to developer, it's a trade-off between familiarity and compatibility with the rest of the world.
But by following community standards it's possible to take a loosely-coupled approach, so different parts of your platform can be used with different parts of other people's platforms. On the other hand, promoting your own specifications to improve the chances of other people's kit working with your own is the height of arrogance.
Thanks Phil.
You're right, it's just a slice in time.
I think Josh's comment here is very honest and fair, and it's what I think is behind what Danny Ayers is saying. He wishes he was achieving the kind of success I seem to effortlessly achieve, but it only looks effortless to him, it's actually a lot of work, and Danny makes it even more work.
After this loop there will be a lot more news being used on mobile devices, and that will make me happy. I know because that's what's happening with podcasting right now. Every time I hear a public radio station say they do broadcast and podcast, I think to myself "There's the evidence of some good I did for the world." And I might add, for myself. I have a much richer life because the news is flowing out through podcasting. In the next few weeks you *will* indeed see a strategy for this emerge. The pieces will have already been invented, for sure. In many cases the invention was mine, although people like Danny will try to say someone else did it. It won't matter because the record is out there, people who care can find out where the ideas came from. Where the software came from will be totally apparent. ;-)
Dave Winer
Dave, it's very nice to see you at acknowledging josh's point. But you're quite wrong about my position: "He wishes he was achieving the kind of success I seem to effortlessly achieve, but it only looks effortless to him, it's actually a lot of work, and Danny makes it even more work."
I'm not actually interested in the kind of success you achieve for yourself. In my own terms, I'm succeeding pretty well (happily married, living in a very nice part of the world with a decent standard of living, working on the things I want to work on - like doing what I can to improve the web...).
From what I've seen you do put a huge amount of effort into achieving your goals, I wish I had that kind of energy. But let me repeat - my idea of success isn't the same as yours, I don't have the same motivations as you.
I believe you've done very good work in your promotion of blogging. However in your promotion of certain technologies I suspect you've actually hampered the progress of the web. You've always put your weight behind your own particular way of doing things, rather than trying to achieve consensus with other people working in similar areas. Fork, fork, fork.
This is where your activity impinges on my own aims and goals. I want to be able to work with good quality, consensus specifications - I believe they're a key factor in moving towards a better web. So I feel obliged to comment in threads like this.
In the current case, the optimal way to create mobile-friendy pages is not to hack on top of breakage, but to encourage good practice. If you can talk NYT into supporting RSS, why not talk them into supporting mobile-friendly HTML?
But I'm afraid once I'm in threads like this, it's hard not to comment beyond the technology.
"In many cases the invention was mine, although people like Danny will try to say someone else did it. " - ok, what specifically are you referring to? I can provide solid documentary evidence that none of the things I listed (writable web/blogging, RSS, outlining) were your invention.
Frankly I don't understand your apparent desperate urge to get into the history books, to the extent of rewriting history. I guess I too lack empathy for other people's motivations.
Danny, here's the mistake you (and others make) -- I couldn't get people to do anything they didn't want to do, or weren't already doing. You give me way too much credit, kind of ironic, since you're always kvetching and whining about how I take too much credit for myself. Funny how these things work out.
thanks everyone, replied to you here
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